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Willma
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 863
Location: Boston
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 Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: THE RISE & FALL (& RISE) OF OPERA'S POPULARITY |
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[quote="Scarpia"] | Willma wrote: |
Don't forget, opera has changed, and singers have changed along with it. Violins haven't changed, but singers' voices, whether they sing opera, musical comedy, jazz or rock, have changed dramatically, and so have the techniques that have produced their voices.
So, you see, voices are not the same as violins, which don't vary to the extent that voices do and are not part of a human being as voices are. A performing artist IS his/her instrument. Singers' techniques ARE part of their artistry; in fact, they are inseparable from it, just as singers are inseparable from their voices. Neither their techniques nor their artistry are a matter of science. Remember, science is based on experiments that are repeatable, but singers and their voices can NOT be exactly reproduced;same, just as a scientific procedure always yields identical results.
So there isn't just one singing technique for everyone.
Doug McCallum
theatre historian |
You bring up many, many considerations. Coming from an instrumental background, I do regard voice as an instrument - and so do some of the revered faculty of Juilliard, a member of whom confided in me that Bocelli "doesn't have the instrument" to acheive status in the world to which he constantly aspires. I could care less.
In some sense, violins have not changed but the manner in which they are played has - including the bow and bow hold. Some sounds have come into favor, other sounds has faded. What was once considered vulgar playing is now acceptable.
In similar fashion, I don't think that voices/people have changed (Vocal chords look pretty much the same in an anatomy book published in 1890 as in a book published in 1990.) but training has changed and what is desirable to the modern ear has changed - so the owners of those chords (the vocal instrument) train and play differently. The modern ear wants amplification and operatic voices, to the unitiated, appear small and disappointing. Also, to many, the facial contortion necessary to reach and project notes is unattractive, the sound unnatural. Opera singers are not alone in their slipping popularity. A member of famous string quartet once said to me - "Whatever I play, I need to play loudly." If we - vocalists, instrumentalists - want to remain part of a living art form, we must embraced change. If not, we become part of a strangulated loop of the art stream that is enjoyable but increasingly out of touch wiith the masses, There is no right or wrong - no shoulds - about this situation although there are financial implications
There is plenty of science that is not conducted in a laboratory, under controlled settings and, therefore, cannot be repeated without any diviation from expectation but it is still science! Everytime we launch a missle or perform an operation, we apply scientific principles which allow use to reduce risk and achieve a heightened degree pf predictability. Ignore science and we are greatly disadvantaged, not only in what we achieve but what we can pass on to others by way of instruction. There is a correct way of playing the cello. We use every muscle in our bodies, including the one we sit on. Ignore the science of physiology, and you will soon bear the misery of repetitive movement.
No performance is repeatable, voice or instrumental, so thank God for recordings. That's what performing art is all about - it is in the moment.
It has thrills and risks. The performer carries our emotions to climax - it is like a love affair. If we have to worry about their technique, or their memory, we cannot relax - but it must be there so it can carry us to the very heights of artistic passion. In the moment of delivery, the "thinker" - the technician - gives way to the "doer" the artist. The thinker, without the doer, is giving a demonstration. The doer without the thinker presents chaos.
Science and art are not adversarial. They are collaborators. They are the wings of the human spirit.
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Willma wrote: |
Opera singers are not alone in their slipping popularity. A member of famous string quartet once said to me - "Whatever I play, I need to play loudly." If we - vocalists, instrumentalists - want to remain part of a living art form, we must embraced change. If not, we become part of a strangulated loop of the art stream that is enjoyable but increasingly out of touch wiith the masses, There is no right or wrong - no shoulds - about this situation although there are financial implications |
"Slipping popularity"? You must be kidding! Opera audiences have been growing by leaps and bounds over the past 50 years. New opera companies have sprung up in numerous cities that previously had nothing of the kind: Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Houston, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and many others. Thanks to the mass media, many more people have heard "the three tenors," "the Irish tenors" or Andrea Bocelli in just one of their televised concerts than heard Caruso during his entire career. For the first time in the history of recordings, opera stars have actually been listed on the charts. None of these developments indicates "slipping popularity"--quite the contrary.
Doug
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Fantom
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Scarpia wrote: | | Willma wrote: | | Opera singers are not alone in their slipping popularity. |
"Slipping popularity"? You must be kidding! Opera audiences have been growing by leaps and bounds over the past 50 years. New opera companies have sprung up in numerous cities that previously had nothing of the kind: Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Houston, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and many others. Thanks to the mass media, many more people have heard "the three tenors," "the Irish tenors" or Andrea Bocelli in just one of their televised concerts than heard Caruso during his entire career. For the first time in the history of recordings, opera stars have actually been listed on the charts. None of these developments indicates "slipping popularity"--quite the contrary.
Doug |
I, too, had been under the impression that opera was struggling. But you bring up some excellent points. Thank you for the clarification. I love the optimism in your post.
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Fantom wrote: |
I, too, had been under the impression that opera was struggling. But you bring up some excellent points. Thank you for the clarification. I love the optimism in your post. |
Thank, Fantom,
It's absolutely true, and there are loads of facts and figures to prove it. The trend began in the 1960s when the first regional opera companies began in North America. One of these began in my native city of Vancouver, Canada, in 1961; the Dallas Civic Opera was another early venture. Previously, in order to attend regular opera seasons one had to live in New York, Chicago and San Francisco, which had long-established opera houses.
The conjunction of radio, T. V. and even movies helped pave the way by featuring opera stars and excerpts, together with the emergence of a new generation of media conscious opera stars with spectacular voices and performing skills. Opera snobs (whom I detest) have always sneered at Mario Lanza, but his movies, records and TV appearances made him one of the great crossover artists and introduced millions of people to the excitement of opera and especially to the thrill of the tenor voice. I still have a lot of his records, on old LPs! Met stars like Richard Tucker and Robert Merrill appeared frequently on talk shows like Johnny Carson, were their singing together with their amusing backstage anecdotes made them very popular with ordinary viewers.
As the regional companies emerged, big stars like Maria Callas, Joan Sutherland, Franco Corelli, Marilyn Horne and others were happy to perform in these new centres. In Vancouver we saw Renata Tebaldi, Horne and Sutherland, who also appeared with the more recent Seattle Opera. Corelli performed his fabulous Andrea Chenier in the latter city as well. Later Vancouver got Domingo in two operas. It was a feast for those of us in the Pacific Northwest. Then there was Seattle's Wagner Festival, which brought great Wagnerian singers and drew audiences from all over the world.
Now that's just in my neck of the woods, but it was happening in many places. Since then, Pavarotti and Bocelli have boosted interest around the globe. Dozens of new opera centres have recently emerged even in smaller cities. It would be easy to assemble statistics from the websites of such regional organizations as well as from record sales. Of course, on this site we all know that Bocelli's audience figures and record sales are up in the stratosphere! (BTW, he's also been recording complete operas, in case anyone may not be aware of it. I believe his latest is of "Cavalleria Rusticana," which will suit his voice and temperament perfectly!!!).
So we're all lucky to be living at a time when such vocal and operatic splendor is available to us.
Long live Bocelli and long live opera! Oh, yes, and long live high notes, since that's how this discussion got started. :music
Gee, Melodie, sorry I complained about that study. Much as I disagreed with it, I now think you ought to post more of them. Sure gives us a lot to talk about! Thanks. I love lively discussions.
Doug
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, re. my previous post, maybe I'll do a book on this subject of regional opera growth. Somebody should.
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Willma
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 863
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Doug,
I find your enthusiasm unbelievable!! Have you been around Boston lately? Our main classical radio station hit the dust - no listeners! The recently renovated old opera house in Boston has yet to stage an opera since it reopened with great fanfan about - guess what! - opera. They're into the Lion King. And I don't believe the opera world even considers Bocelli an opera singer. Recently, when speaking to a guide at the Vienna State Opera - the guy said opera has been draining the state of cash - completely government subsidized because nobody is going to the opera except on one evening a year - I think it may be New Year's Eve - or some holiday event - not to see opera themselves but to be seen by others. In recent years , - 13 orchestras have folded. The Tweeter Ctr, where Bocelli is to appear this summer, was made as the summer home of the Pittsburg Symphony. That idea lasted two summer and they were gone. Bocelli himself started to come up with empty seats when giving his fans - who are mostly pop fans - too many arias - so he hooked up with ice shows - got a pop album out there and is trying again to fill the arenas. I doubt it. His venues are getting smaller. One good sign for him - the New York Phil invite - but then again - they're also hurting for money so they're caving. I know. A friend of mine is on their board of directors. So we are looking at the proverbial elephant through different holes. P.S. Make sure you don't get your info from publicists. They have a knack at giving a positive spin to a downward spiral.
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Melodie
Administrator
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Excuse me while I step in for a minute - should I split this thread and start a new one titled "The Rise and Fall of Opera" or something?
Let me know. |
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Willma wrote: | Doug,
I find your enthusiasm unbelievable!! Have you been around Boston lately? Our main classical radio station hit the dust - no listeners! The recently renovated old opera house in Boston has yet to stage an opera since it reopened with great fanfan about - guess what! - opera. They're into the Lion King. And I don't believe the opera world even considers Bocelli an opera singer. Recently, when speaking to a guide at the Vienna State Opera - the guy said opera has been draining the state of cash - completely government subsidized because nobody is going to the opera except on one evening a year - I think it may be New Year's Eve - or some holiday event - not to see opera themselves but to be seen by others. In recent years , - 13 orchestras have folded. The Tweeter Ctr, where Bocelli is to appear this summer, was made as the summer home of the Pittsburg Symphony. That idea lasted two summer and they were gone. Bocelli himself started to come up with empty seats when giving his fans - who are mostly pop fans - too many arias - so he hooked up with ice shows - got a pop album out there and is trying again to fill the arenas. I doubt it. His venues are getting smaller. One good sign for him - the New York Phil invite - but then again - they're also hurting for money so they're caving. I know. A friend of mine is on their board of directors. So we are looking at the proverbial elephant through different holes. P.S. Make sure you don't get your info from publicists. They have a knack at giving a positive spin to a downward spiral. |
"I find your enthusiasm unbelievable!!" Wow! I'm not sure how to take that comment, Willma. I hope you don't mean that you can't believe anything I say, but I can only guess. With statements like that one you take my breath away! You really do.
Well, dear, I genuinely enjoy our discussions, and I welcome your many valid observations, but there are also some serious problems with your tendency to both generalize from the particular, and to confuse sematics. I'll deal with the first problem now, even though it means replying to your latest post before addressing your previous one. I'll reply to your comments about "science" later.
I can only express regret for what you say has been happening to opera in Boston. But I would also point out, and here I must try to be as tactful as I can, that Boston has unfortunately declined as a cohesive, civic community, unlike the ones I cited in my previous message. It has always been a class-conscious city; now it is a culturally and racially divided one as well. I read the most objective newspapers and periodicals, so I know this to be the case. Such conditions are not a fertile ground for opera, or most other arts.
You should, however, avoid drawing generalizations from a particular instance. That's one of the worst errors in elementary logic--and also, BTW, in basic science, which was the major fault I object to in your earlier contributions to this discussion. As you may have noticed, I drew my own conclusions about the growth of opera from a variety of cities, both large and small, in both Canada and the United States.
The Vancouver Opera, for instance, still draws an average attendance of 97% of capacity (2,800 seats), despite what I consider to be much lesser quality productions than it presented 20 years ago. (See my comments on this topic elsewhere on this site.)
You, on the other hand, drew your conclusion from a single U. S. city. Given the problems of that city, which also pertain to the economically and socially declining region it happens to be part of, your conclusion is simply invalid regarding the current state of opera across North America--never mind the rest of the world!
If you wish to dispute my observations about the extraordinary increase of interest in opera during the past 50 years or so, you need to examine more than the conditions within one, lone, sadly declined city. Admittedly, much of the growth has occurred in western cities, but they're also where most of the economic and social improvement, as well population increases, have occurred.
As I mentioned before, there is plenty of evidence on the internet and in numerous other sources to substantiate my assertions. I'm afraid it's a more complex and a more wide-spread phenomenon than you would have us believe. But let's keep a lively, even passionate discussion going on this forum! It's what a forum ought to consist of (not just a bunch of bland one-liners), as long as we're courteous. And we can always bring up new topics to agree or disagree on.
Cheers, 
Doug
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Melodie wrote: | Excuse me while I step in for a minute - should I split this thread and start a new one titled "The Rise and Fall of Opera" or something?
Let me know. |
Sure, Melodie. That's okay by me, if it helps keep a good discussion going.
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Willma
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 863
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Scarpia wrote: |
But let's keep a lively, even passionate discussion going on this forum! It's what a forum ought to consist of (not just a bunch of bland one-liners), as long as we're courteous. And we can always bring up new topics to agree or disagree on.
Cheers,
Doug |
Yes! I love a lively discussion - and we certainly have different views of that elephant. Boston has always been a city of the arts so its decline to me is like the canary in the coal mine. Most of the orchestra players in the Boston Phil are typical - volunteers! (not the BOS) - so the people who are hanging in are hanging in for the love of their art - certainly not for health insurance because they don't have any. I have a very vested interest in this area since those near and dear to me are professional musicians. I would love to share your enthusiasm but it is not possible. I have been around too long, seen too many non-union musicians undercut the union musicians just to get that job. I'm not a ticket holder - that's not my view. I think you are dazzled - and I am frazzled - and somewhere in between may lie the truth.
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Willma wrote: |
Yes! I love a lively discussion - and we certainly have different views of that elephant. Boston has always been a city of the arts so its decline to me is like the canary in the coal mine. Most of the orchestra players in the Boston Phil are typical - volunteers! (not the BOS) - so the people who are hanging in are hanging in for the love of their art - certainly not for health insurance because they don't have any. I have a very vested interest in this area since those near and dear to me are professional musicians. I would love to share your enthusiasm but it is not possible. I have been around too long, seen too many non-union musicians undercut the union musicians just to get that job. I'm not a ticket holder - that's not my view. I think you are dazzled - and I am frazzled - and somewhere in between may lie the truth. |
Me, dazzled? Hardly! You should read my critique of the Vancouver Opera's decline in quality (despite their 97% box office) elsewhere on this website, if you think I'm just some sort of "cockeyed optimist!" It was a reply to a posting about their current "Bugs Bunny" ad campaign, if you can believe it. I've been boycotting them for years. There's better opera in Seattle. I love opera, but I'm also very critical, as most longtime opera fans are.
Look, Willma, I've been an opera fan since I was 12 years old, and have been going to operas regularly since I was 13. I've seen hundreds of live performances in many venues, as I pointed out in an earlier post. As a theatre historian, some of my interest has been in staging, set and costume design and theatre architecture. But primarily my love of opera comes from a love of great singing, and I've heard many great singers in performances and many more on records. Have you ever listened to Alessandro Bonci? How about Tito Schipa, or Claudia Muzio, or Elizabeth Rethberg? They're records are still available.
Fantom thought I was citing such experiences as "credentials," but I was stating them merely as a "witness." We've since cleared up that misunderstanding.
The bottom line is that I do have a vast experience of opera past and present, and have had an opportunity to observe its overall growth in popularity first hand. For Heaven's sake, even New York and London have experienced such growth. They used to have only one opera company apiece, now they each have several organizations devoted to opera.
You're still mistaking Boston for the rest of the world. Once again, I repeat my regret for what's going on in your city. Nor do I deny that arts organizations everywhere have plenty of problems. They've always had them, and they always will. But you still seem to miss my point entirely. My point was that millions of people word-wide have some form of access to opera today, whereas 50 years ago they had none. They certainly didn't where I live, and they didn't in most other places where they now have local opera.
That's all there is to it. It's a well-established, well-documented fact, but you keep flying in the face of it. You say I'm dazzled, but I'm afraid you're simply blinkered--by your local experience and the overly pessimistic outlook on the rest of the world which you draw from it. I'm sorry about Boston and your friends, but your responses on this topic are just too parochial and personal to be of much use in what has become a general discussion, not a local one. They're also wearing thin.
I don't know why you're having so much trouble getting the point. Fantom got it. Are you just being obtuse? Or what? If you just keep going on about Boston, I refuse to reply any longer. It's pointless. You need to widen your horizens. You said it yourself: "I have a very vested interest in this area since those near and dear to me are professional musicians." It's too bad that Boston is no longer what it once was, but even in its heyday it never was the be all and the end all of anything. Cities are apt to grow and decline, that's another historical fact that you seem to want to ignore. But such local occurrences have nothing to do with the international development of opera.
Yes, I'm enjoying this discussion, on the whole. But enough about Boston already, please. The rest of us have our own personal and local problems, but we don't project them on the rest of planet. In this case the truth does not "lie in between" at all--certainly not in between Boston and everywhere else.
Doug 
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Willma
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 863
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Scarpia wrote: |
That's all there is to it. It's a well-established, well-documented fact, but you keep flying in the face of it.
I don't know why you're having so much trouble getting the point. Fantom got it. Are you just being obtuse? Or what? If you just keep going on about Boston, I refuse to reply any longer. It's pointless.
Yes, I'm enjoying this discussion, on the whole. But enough about Boston already, please. The rest of us have our own personal and local problems, but we don't project them on the rest of planet. In this case the truth does not "lie in between" at all--certainly not in between Boston and everywhere else.
Doug |
I thought we were having a friendly discussion. Perhaps your are living in your own fantasy world - a grand opera and I am now cast as the antagonist. Give me a break! I got your point. I just don't agree with it. I do leave Boston once in awhile - Vienna recently - with all their moaning about the cashing draining opera house. I also rent a pad on the upperwest side of Manhattan. I must admit I haven't made it to the hinterlands of Vancouver. I guess that's where the action really is these days - who knew?
So, Doug - that's not "all there is too it" (God! How arrogant!) - even though you have decided it is so. You seem to be very impressed with yourself . It's unattractive and unwarrented. While you're checking out those costumes, why don't you ask the people wearing them where they get there health insurance. You sound like an opera groupee. Get some perspective.
Opera has, for the masses, a very steep learning curve. ( Not for me - since I grew up with it and I think I have a few years on you.) Pav called opera singing "trained shouting" and, really who needs to hear that. Frankly, people look very unattractive when they're reaching for those high notes - and even if you can reach them, do you really think you should? Opera is a part of the art stream and that stream has moved on. Sure there will always be people who get hooked into one period or another - just like people who reenact the Civil War - but most of the world has moved on - except the people YOU run into, I guess. Bocelli was pressing his luck with just too many arias and too many sopranos. People became bored because they came to hear the pop that made him famous so empty seats started to appear. He's got the message, I believe, and he's giving a more healthy mix. I think we'll see more of that in the future.
I don't know anything about the Bugs Bunny brouhaha but I suspect he is an apt spokesman for the opera. That's all folks!!!!!!
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Willma
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Excellent move, Melodie! There is so much to consider in this area - the expense, the images, the sounds, the themes, the attitudes - all confronting the modern ear, the modern mind. We can address these issues in regard to any art form but there does seem to be more drama involved - of course!!!! - when considering opera.
Just one area - the images of it's stars. Just consider the word "girth". Someone used this recently on another thread - or this perhaps. This is certainly an unflattering attribute in all settings except perhaps opera. Just yesterday, front page news in the Globe (Yes! We're talking about Boston again!) the epidemic of obesity. In light of our current enlightenment and concerns on this issue, how can we promote an art that seems to require obesity to support a trained voice.
Look at other areas that require risk to health- camel jockies - the slavery and starvation of children; ballet - the haunting curse of anorexia; sumo wrestling, the bigger the better! Of course there is a history of art at all costs in opera. Consider the "castrati". These were young boys with some musical talent. They came from poor families and earning money by castration to preserve their high voices seemed like an acceptable option. This practice of castration continued until the early 19th Cent., music written for the "voci bianchi" or white voices by such well-known composers as Mozart and Rossini. Today - we all know that that would not fly - but what about weight - girth. Even aside from the visuals, can we in good conscience promote this?
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Scarpia
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Melodie, after you took the trouble to split this thread, but I won't be back here as long as Willma is lurking around. She's a pest and a bore, and she can't even spell ("too" instead of "to!"), let alone express herself coherently. Despite what she claims, it's obvious to me that she knows next to nothing about opera. Her comments about it and about those who really care about it are uninformed and unpleasant; indeed, they show that she dislikes both it and them.
Her remarks here about Bocelli, the Wiener Staatsoper and Vancouver are sadly typical. If you allow bullies to hang around for no other reason than to vent their frustrations on anyone who actually has anything worthwhile to say, then you're going to lose those decent, rational people, and the bullies will take over.
I can't accept the bitterness and hostility she displays toward opera singers, opera audiences, overweight people, underweight people, ballet and anyone or anything else she disagrees with. I've already told her in another thread that I won't reply to her any more, or even read her outbursts. Life's too short to put up with such guff. I don't understand why someone who expresses a strong disapproval of opera and its artists would want to waste their time in a discussion forum about those very subjects.
I still like the site on the whole, but I'll stick to the Bocelli threads in future. If Willma carries on the same way on those, I'm sure there will be plenty of others to "reply" to her.
Bye now,
Doug
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